If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.
There is another who testifies in my favor,
and I know that his testimony about me is true. [1]
“Some call it Magick to search for the grail” [2]
Q: Pop analysts are often trying to read something into songs that isn’t there.
A: It is there. [3]
Yours is as true a way of looking at it as any other way. [4]
The idea of the film won’t really be dug for another fifty or a hundred years probably. [5]
You’ve got to get down to your own god in your own temple in your head and it’s all down to yourself. [6]
It’s like there’s no need for us to be a few Christian martyrs because there’s lots of us and don’t be afraid because they do look after you, whoever’s up there, if you get on with it. [7]
“You are here”, meaning that this is all we can know of life’s purpose, is the pervading message behind the art of both John and Yoko, The message is short but conclusive. [8]
It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come,
about which we are speaking. [9]
I guess for me Jacob the issue of salvation is settled when Jesus said that He was the Way the Truth and the Life, and no comes to the Father except through Him. This clearly indicates that the ONLY way into heaven and to God is by accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour. This is the very reason for the crucifixion. Without that sacrifice made by a sinless man then no one would ever get into heaven as we are all sinful creatures and could not be in the prescence of God. Jesus made the sacrifice that no one else could make. We are saved by Grace not by actions and therefore no amount of ‘jail time’ will purge that sin. ONLY God can forgive.
Comment by ChrisW — October 2, 2011 @ 3:26 PM
Hi again ChrisW,
Yes, I agree with your position – that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, and no comes to the Father except through Him. That is certainly a tenant that Jesus put forth that would be hard not to emphasize to a great degree.
You go on to say that ‘This clearly indicates that the ONLY way into heaven and to God is by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior’. Here, we see a slight departure by the two witnesses from your exact perspective. My understanding of the two witnesses indicates that there may well be more than one way to demonstrate that a person has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The fact that a person’s actions comply completely with the will of Jesus Christ perfectly is enough to demonstrate that acceptance you are referring to, according to the two witnesses.
The two witnesses were quite clear in their disdain for organized religion. When John was questioned about Christianity his response was more or less as follows: ‘What Jesus said was great but his disciples just muddied everything up’. So what the two witnesses were saying was that his disciples, who could really be extrapolated as representing the doctrines that churches have adopted over the years, serve primarily to keep a particular church alive; even more so than putting forth the real intended message that Jesus delivers to us in the Gospels.
I suppose that what I am saying is that one’s actions serve to proclaim one’s acceptance, sometimes even more so than one’s verbal acceptance of Jesus Christ. Of course, many today will disagree with this statement, and so be it. I just want you to understand the perspective of the two witnesses, that’s all.
You go on to say the following: ‘This is the very reason for the crucifixion.’ Actually, the two witnesses considered that crucifixion as something that should be understood to be an emulative act, which is really how they pictured the entire life of Jesus Christ, really. To the two witnesses, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was done to show us that the death of Christianity will one day take place. What is very harmonious about the crucifixion in this respect is the length that he remained dead, which we all know to be roughly three days. When we look at the anti-Christ we see that though he is power some seven years, for only the last half – 3 1/2 years – does he overtly complete all of the things that are to be done by the anti-Christ. The 3 1/2 days that Jesus Christ remained dead after his crucifixion emulates perfectly this death of Christianity that will take place during the last half of the anti-Christ.
It really all comes down to the following question; that is, is Jesus Christ here primarily for us or are we here primarily for him? The two witnesses lean towards the latter of the two scenarios; that we are here primarily for him, so that his plan here amongst the human race can come to fruition. To me, this is a much more humble approach to take when having a relationship with Jesus Christ, but of course many seek Jesus for reasons that do not incorporate this perspective at all.
In fact, it was this understanding of the crucifixion that led John to say that (and I paraphrase): “Christianity will disappear, it will vanish and shrink. We needn’t argue about that. I am right and I will be proved right.” His understanding of the emulative aspect of the crucifixion is from where this statement finds its origin. Of course, a person that does not believe in the power of Jesus Christ would never be able to make such a statement, forcing us to conclude that indeed the two witnesses were indeed quite religious in regards to their faith and belief in Jesus Christ. They just never felt the need to stand up and proclaim it to the world.
You also state the following: “We are saved by Grace not by actions and therefore no amount of ‘jail time’ will purge that sin. ONLY God can forgive.” Well, the two witnesses, I suppose John in particular based on my studies, indicate that how we treat another person could well have an impact on another’s afterlife. John was reputed to have said once that he felt that if he was murdered that this would be what was needed for him to achieve a more positive eternity, and I tend to agree with that position. What is very interesting is that a good friend of mine, one who is currently sending his child to a two year program that is offered through the Catholic Church, had the following to say about this particular topic: “Jacob, just wanted to let you know that your advancing the idea that humans can impact another person’s eternity is something that appears to be supported by those that are steeped in the doctrines of the Catholic Church. I was at a church discussion recently related to my son’s classes there and was told by the deacon that was heading up the discussion that there is actually a prayer that is sanctioned by the Catholic Church that has primarily a single function. That is, I was told that if I pray this certain prayer that the end result would be that persons trapped in Purgatory will be released into God’s presence whenever this prayer is sincerely put forth’.
Well, I about fell off my chair when I was told this, as this type of praying clearly demonstrates and supports the position of the two witnesses that indeed a person can affect another person’s eternity, which is what the two witnesses were saying as well.
Comment by Jacob — October 10, 2011 @ 10:11 AM
Jacob your perspective that a man no matter how appalling his crimes can be punished here on earth for his crimes and not have to suffer the same in the next life misses perhaps one major point – to atone for ones sins, one has to repent of them, ask forgiveness of the ONLY one who can forgive those sins ergo God. No amount of punative retribution by man towards man can remove sin. If it were that simple then simply going to confession of a weekend and having a priest punish you with 2 dozen Hail Marys and an our Father would suffice. You’d have to be fairly ignorant of Gods word to believe that and I don’t think you are.
The ONLY way we get into Heaven is to accept Jesus as Lord and saviour and ask for his forgiveness. It’s not rocket science, it’s not complicated. It does not require us beating ourselves with sticks or by going through some complex religious process. We are forgiven by Gods grace. It really is that simple. Only God can know our hearts and if we are genuinely repentant and accepting of His Holy Son Jesus.
As far as Baptism is concerned it’s always a good idea but if we die before we can take it no matter. Regarding baptism, it is only effective when done with the understanding of what and why we are doing it. It has to be voluntary.
otherwise it is meaningless.
I can’t agree that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, or that everything is according to Gods plan. Everything WORKS to Gods plan. We sin because we CHOOSE to do so. Whenever something comes along we are at a crossroads to make a choice, the right one or the wrong one. God does indeed allow bad things to happen for us to learn and grow from them, but I doubt that He planned them.
Comment by ChrisW — September 30, 2011 @ 12:09 AM
Hi,
Great points! I’ll break apart your comment and respond accordingly for you. Bear with me, this is difficult material. If you want me to elaborate further let me know and I’ll be happy to do that.
“Jacob your perspective that a man no matter how appalling his crimes can be punished here on earth for his crimes and not have to suffer the same in the next life misses perhaps one major point – to atone for ones sins, one has to repent of them, ask forgiveness of the ONLY one who can forgive those sins ergo God.”
Yes, you can find references in the Bible that support exactly what you are commenting about here. I will not argue with that. However, my take on the contents of the Bible is different than yours, which I will explain. I’m not saying that my perspective is better than yours, but I will say that varying perspectives reveal different aspects of the various profound dimensions of the Bible.
Before I do that, though, I should say that it is my contention that my understanding of the words in the Bible is based nearly wholly on my studies of the two witnesses; my understanding evolved as I came to understand the two witnesses. In other words, I basically approach the contents of the Bible in the same way that I believe that John and Paul did while they were immersed in the period of prophecy. Without incorporating in myself that perspective – their perspective – I would never have been able to see the two witnesses, much less understand them. I suppose that what I’m trying to say is that each and every person gets something different out of the Bible in terms of their thought process that determines which statements are of a higher importance than others.
Let’s take a high-level look at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, which I find very interesting. We all would agree that he was crucified in a murderous fashion; it certainly was very brutal. Now, let’s incorporate into that event the commandment, “Thou shall not kill”. It seems to me that these two variables are of great importance in that there is much to be derived by observing that the crucifixion incorporates the breaking of this sacred commandment. To me, that became a primary aspect of the crucifixion that needed to be properly understood in order to fully understand the significance of the crucifixion.
Ultimately, it was determined that this variable of the breaking of this particular commandment during the crucifixion should be seen to be a subtle conveyance, to those that are willing to see and acknowledge it, that serves to tell us that even acts that go against the teachings of Jesus Christ are at times justified, or necessary, in order for the plan of Jesus Christ to move forward.
There is a line in Bob Dylan’s song, ‘With God on Our Side’, that goes as follows: “You’ll have to decide / whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side.” Here we see that Bob Dylan was considering exactly the same concept that is now under consideration by the two of us; that is, do all events take place in accordance with the plan of Jesus Christ, or do just some of them – those we consider to be good? If we do conclude that the actions of Judas Iscariot were brought about by the will of God so that his plan would be furthered, it is hard to imagine, for me at least, that Judas Iscariot would be judged harshly further down the road. To me, quite the opposite seems to be the more probable outcome – that Judas Iscariot fulfilled exactly what he was supposed to fulfill in terms of the plan of Jesus Christ so he is treated accordingly. With that being said, how can we say that a negative after-life experience awaited him?
I suppose that what I am getting at is that it appears that there is more than one way to be granted eternal salvation within the religion of Christianity, or however you want to phrase it. First, it can certainly be achieved as you say, by overtly accepting Jesus Christ and asking for his forgiveness. However, my contention is that if you simply further the plan of Jesus Christ then you also will attain that same salvation. Of course, it is more complicated than that, but in simplistic terms that is the gist of what I’m advancing. With all that being said, it is also my contention that each and every person contributes to the advancement of the plan of Jesus Christ. The most evil murderer, as well as the baby that passes away five hours after being born, all contribute equally to the advancement of his plan. This is a fairly difficult concept to accept by many, but it seems very clear and easy to understand from where I stand in terms of understanding what is written in the Bible, after having becoming aware of and studying the two witnesses.
This same sort of perspective has been incorporated into my interpretation of other aspects of the teachings of Jesus as well.
2) “No amount of punitive retribution by man towards man can remove sin. If it were that simple then simply going to confession of a weekend and having a priest punish you with 2 dozen Hail Marys and an our Father would suffice.”
To me, after having read the Gospels many times, the one tenant that Jesus talks about the most is this notion of Judgment. If one accepts that everything that takes place here in this world is a result of, or an emulation of, the plan of Jesus Christ then we must conclude that a person that judges negatively the actions of others is also, in effect, casting judgment upon the very plan that has been put into place by Jesus Christ. The Bible is clear in that it is said that the courts, the judges in those courts, shall be the societal mechanism that handles the doling out of judgment towards human beings for their actions. It is only through the courts that it is alright to cast judgment upon another human.
When we violate this tenant regarding judgment that Jesus talks so much about it can affect the eternal outcome of the judged person. I’ve read that John Lennon once stated that he felt he needed to be murdered in order for him to attain salvation, and if it is true that he said this then it makes perfect sense to me where he was coming from with this statement.
No, judging another is a slap into the face of the plan of Jesus Christ. Our lives would be much better off if we moved onto doing something that required no judgment of our fellow humans. I think a person is treading on fairly dangerous ground spiritually if they think it is fine to cast their judgment of others around.
Regarding your example, I just have this to say. Say there are two people and both decide to help out their neighbor. One of them, though, helps out in a spontaneous fashion expecting nothing in return, while the other one helps out with the goal of getting something out of the person he helps.
Now, both performed the exact same helpful act to their neighbor, but does each of the two men receive the same kind of treatment by God for this act? I would say that the spontaneous man that wants nothing in return is seen in a much more favorable light. In this same respect, going to a church with the intention of being judged so that God will say that you have been judged is not the same as being spontaneously judged outside of a defined environment such as the church is.
3) “The ONLY way we get into Heaven is to accept Jesus as Lord and savior and ask for his forgiveness. It’s not rocket science, it’s not complicated. It does not require us beating ourselves with sticks or by going through some complex religious process. We are forgiven by Gods grace. It really is that simple. Only God can know our hearts and if we are genuinely repentant and accepting of His Holy Son Jesus.”
I agree with you, this is a very simple way to get into Heaven and your approach surely works whenever the acceptance of Jesus Christ is genuine. For many, many people this is all that is needed for them to get through this world and into God’s eternity. However, as I stated earlier, furthering the plan of Jesus Christ is apparently just as meaningful to Jesus Christ as is this act of accepting Jesus Christ as you describe goes. Jesus himself says that he did not come here for everyone – that it is the sick and the lame that he came for. What is he saying here? Is he saying that all those that he did not come here for are doomed to eternal damnation? To me, I don’t get that out of what he is saying here. Rather, it seems that even those that are not sick and lame are also contributing to the plan of Jesus Christ in a way that could be deemed equal to what a person that has consciously accepted Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, and I’m certainly not saying this about you directly, many people find comfort in deciding that their religious views are more correct than other people’s religious views. I’m just not one of those people. To me, it is all really very simple as well. That is, everyone goes to heaven because everyone contributes to the plan of Jesus Christ.
The coming of the anti-Christ is a great example here. Surely you agree that all events in Revelation must come and go as we move forward towards the establishment of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. Are all the individuals that support the rise of the anti-Christ, in a complicit fashion or not, doomed simply because they help along a part of Jesus’ plan that we all agree is a very dark, evil period? I just have a hard time reaching that conclusion.
4) “As far as Baptism is concerned it’s always a good idea but if we die before we can take it no matter. Regarding baptism, it is only effective when done with the understanding of what and why we are doing it. It has to be voluntary, otherwise it is meaningless.”
What can I say in response to this comment of yours other then I agree with you 100%?
5) “I can’t agree that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, or that everything is according to Gods plan. Everything WORKS to Gods plan. We sin because we CHOOSE to do so. Whenever something comes along we are at a crossroads to make a choice, the right one or the wrong one. God does indeed allow bad things to happen for us to learn and grow from them, but I doubt that He planned them.”
Well, I do think that the two witnesses understood, or believed, that everything happens to further the plan of Jesus Christ. I will go one step further and say that the two witnesses also advocated the notion that this entire thing we call reality doesn’t really exist as most think that it does; that it is really just an emulation of the plan of Jesus Christ. This is where the phrase ‘nothing is real’ from the Lennon-McCartney duo finds its real meaning, as the phrase is nothing more than a poetic way of saying ‘nothing is literal’, meaning that we need to look at everything in a symbolic manner, and that includes how we view this thing we collectively call reality.
With that being said, this world, or this reality, appears to be far from perfect to many because bad things are happening to us inside of this state of emulation that I refer to. So, many people deny God’s existence simply because this world has murders, or earthquakes, or whatever else is not helpful to the human condition. To me, the world is perfect in every manner. Just because bad things happen to me or to others is not enough to alter this notion that the world is indeed a perfect place.
Regarding your comment that we choose to sin, this is also a very profound concept to consider. I’m sure you disagree but I’ve concluded that they only thing that we have free will about in terms of being able to choose is that we get to choose whether or not to Jesus Christ is our Savior or not. After that, everything else is predetermined. I always point to the Lord’s Prayer regarding this notion of being part of a plan, of being predetermined. It is my contention that this very concept is found in that prayer.
Take a look at the line in the Lord’s Prayer that starts off as follows:
“Our Father / who art in heaven / hallowed be thy name / thy Kingdom come / thy will be done / on earth as it is in heaven / …….”
The ‘on earth as it is in heaven’ phrase is a very meaningful, for here we see, depending on how you understand these words, that the events here on earth are tied to, or related to, the events going on up in heaven. Most people read this statement and agree with what I’m saying but they don’t take it any further. The way I take this phrase is that what is really being said is that the events going on here on earth are in perfect accordance with what is happening in heaven; specifically, the plan of Jesus Christ to establish his Kingdom amongst the human race. To me, the only way that the events here on earth could be just like what is going on in heaven is that if this world is indeed a perfect emulation of the plan of Jesus Christ.
As a side note, we see that the tail end of the Lord’s Prayer incorporates this notion of judgment that we discussed up above:
“…./ give us this day our daily bread / and forgive us our trespasses / as we forgive those that trespass against us / ….”
It appears that when we forgive our fellow humans for the errors of their ways – their trespasses – we need to let go of this notion of judging each other for everything each of us does as well. Yes, this notion of not judging one another is all over the place when one looks at the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Thanks for posting this great comment!
Comment by Jacob — September 30, 2011 @ 1:53 PM
Jacob,
Thank you for your detailed explanation. I am sorry if you assumed that I was comparing you personally with Manson. I was not. I was simply making a connection to the similarity of your work with his in the simple fact that you both correlated The Beatles with the Bible. I am sure you are not a psychopathic lunatic.
You say that Manson relates himself and The Beatles to Revelation 9. This is a common misunderstanding probably most attributed to the song “Revolution 9″ on the White album. It was actually the description of the 4 horseman in chapter 6 that Manson attributed to John, Paul, George and Ringo. But like you said, his rantings were not very detailed or intellegent, so it is difficult to find any harmonious meaning to them.
I also completely understand your reasoning for my rejection of the two witnesses. I agree that it is easier to become well known by leaving home. However, there were also many people that rejected Jesus that were not from his home town. The first century Romans, the Pharisees (religious leaders of the time), and the Jews all rejected him. So I think it is my strong faith in and knowledge of God and His son, and not my fondness of The Beatles that makes it difficult for me to agree with you.
I will also say that your book is very well thought out and constructed. I feel though, that seems to be a case “seeing what you want to see.” If I try hard enough, I can find similarities with any book of the Bible and the music of say, Pink Floyd. The creative work of John and Paul during the mid to late 60s is unparalleled. Much of it is symbolic, which is why it is easy to compare it to any part of Revelation. Your are not the first to make this comparison and I am sure you will not be the last.
Thanks
Comment by RJ — July 10, 2009 @ 9:00 AM
HI Thanks,
Well, you have so much to say that is worth responding to.
First, you say that I am ‘seeing what I want to see’. No, that is not exactly the case. What I would like to ‘see’ from reading the Bible is that I will be sheltered from harm and pain and suffering solely because I have accepted Jesus Christ into my life. But what I found was that Jesus promises none of that; rather, he promises only to support me and provide me with the strength needed to make it through all the events in my life that are indeed painful and hard to endure. No, what is written here is something that simply flowed into me and then out of me in the form of this book.
As far as the Manson reference goes, if you read the book you will see that some time is spent talking about how Manson was able to detect that something was going on in the music of John and Paul, but his view of everything was incomplete, as the two witnesses had not yet fully completed their period of prophecy. I suppose that in the sense that both Manson and I established a tie between John and Paul and the Bible we are the same, but the similarities stop there. None could say that the level of detail that I provide in my explanation of the two witnesses was matched by Manson’s teachings and beliefs, as mine is much more detailed and substantiated.
Of course, I get a fair amount of comments that simply state that I am incorrect, but then there are many people that don’t even believe in Jesus Christ, so I have no worries regarding your not accepting the prophecies of the two witnesses and using them to our mutual benefit.
Your last point about ‘having to leave home to be famous’ deserves a comment as well. It’s true that not everyone outside one’s home town will accept a person such as this, but then again every person living outside a person’s home town doesn’t need to accept the person in order for them to be famous. Jesus himself is very famous, wouldn’t you say? But, not everyone outside of his home town accepted him.
Thanks for the great comment!
Comment by Jacob — September 29, 2011 @ 9:08 AM
As a Chrisitian (meaning I obey EVERYTHING Jesus commanded, including preaching from house to house and celebrating the memorial of His death and not His “supposed” birth) and as a huge Beatles fan, I have one thing to say: Charles Manson times 1000!!
Comment by RJ — July 8, 2009 @ 2:18 PM
Hi Ryan,
Well, the subject that Jesus seems to touch on more than any other in the Gospels is this notion of judgment. It seems that judgment is to be left for some time after we pass away. It appears that everything that happens in this world of ours is in perfect accordance with the plan of Jesus Christ. So, in effect, when we judge an event, situation, or person negatively, we are in effect judging the creator of this world in the same manner. Let me see if I can explain it all from another angle to hopefully relay to you just what perspective I am coming from.
Say there is a man that commits what are to you reprehensible acts. Now, this person will be judged according to all his actions so you would think that when this person is judged in the afterlife that he should be prepared to be judged in a somewhat punishing manner. But what happens more often than you think, between the time that this man commits those reprehensible acts and the time that he passes away, society, at whatever level, deems it worthy to cast judgment upon this person prior to his death in terms of those reprehensible acts.
Because he was judged here in this world, by other humans, God casts a saving grace to this person and he is not judged at all in the afterlife for those reprehensible acts. In fact, because this man was judged so harshly while he was alive, he finds himself eternally blessed; forever living in the light of God.
The moral of this story is that everything that happens – everything – is part of the plan of Jesus Christ, even those that we as humans deem reprehensible. The mistake we make is thinking that what we decide is reprehensible God must also see the every same way. This is where the human being shows just how impossible to see the plan of Jesus Christ clearly. No, to God, every act that takes place here in this world is not really considered ‘good’ or ‘bad’; rather, every act is considered to be ‘part of the plan of Jesus Christ’.
To me, getting close to Jesus Christ really requires that one incorporates this understanding of judgment into their lives in proper fashion.
Comment by Jacob — September 29, 2011 @ 8:42 AM
I would just like to say that Jesus talked extensively about the perils of judging others in all that they do. I consider his discussions regarding judgment as being a commandment, or tenant, of his; one well worth incorporating into one’s religious lifestyle.
Comment by Jacob — September 30, 2011 @ 2:06 PM
I have just spent/wasted an hour or so here, and I did get some great laughs. The whole crock here reminds me of the great profit Rev. Lovejoy who said “Marge, you can make that book say anything you want it to say”. I can only add: Coocoo, coocoo!! It’s 2 o’clock!
Comment by Rick G -FOTR — July 7, 2009 @ 1:15 PM
Hi Rick G,
Glad to hear from you. Well, enough time has passed since your obviously very emotional response. It’s nice to see that you have such a defined view of your religion.
Fortunately, for me anyway, the Bible is a living Bible, meaning that any person, at any time, can pick up the Bible and get out of it that which is pertinent to his or her life, at whatever level. What is so profound about the Bible is that it can mean something very unique to whomever picks it up and reads it, and every one of those understandings of the words in the Bible can be applicable in their own right.
John and Paul tell us that when Jesus talks about ‘coming to him only as a child’ that what he is saying is that it is best to approach Jesus with no preconceptions. I highly recommend that a person take a hard look at this aspect of Jesus’ teachings. It would be time well spent I’m sure.
Comment by Jacob — September 29, 2011 @ 8:50 AM
This is a great example of the typical reaction I get from people in terms of this book. I wanted to post this comment to show you that many people immediately decide that this account of the two witnesses is false. One thing that is certain about the person that posted this comment is that they never read the book in its entirety; they simply came across a concept that required them to adjust their viewpoint in order to understand what was being said and out came this comment instead. It’s expected and this won’t be the last person that sends in a comment such as this.
Comment by Jacob — September 30, 2011 @ 2:01 PM
You know you’re going to have to rewrite your whole thesis once Sony/BMG takes control of the Beatles catalog, right? See, that’s the problem with “prophesying” – you can’t be partially right when you’re totally wrong no matter how ephemeral your conclusions or data. Ask Jack Van Impe; humorous and eminently watchable, sure, but never, ever right.
I think you do yourself a great disservice (especially as a Christian) looking for “codes” in either music or the bible.
Comment by Flameproof — June 30, 2009 @ 1:42 PM
Hi Flameproof,
Your comment seems to be saying that I am claiming that I am “prophesying”. There is no where in this book that says that, leading me to think that like so many others that make comments such as this, that you have not read the entire book. No, I am no prophet; I am someone that has come to correctly understand statements in the Bible that are prophetic in nature as they relate to the two witnesses.
Regarding your statement that I will need to rewrite my whole thesis once Sony/BMG takes control of the Beatles’ catalog, if you would be so kind as to tell me what you have determined my thesis to be I’ll be more than happy to respond to that comment.
And thanks for determining that I am doing myself a great disservice. It’s sincerely appreciated.
Comment by Jacob — October 6, 2011 @ 8:09 AM